Forums › Other › Flight changes and cancellations help › Denied boarding “due to sick crew member” – are we entitled to claim?
Denied boarding “due to sick crew member” – are we entitled to claim?
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Hello,
Recently my friend and I were bumped from a BA reward flight due to a “staff member being sick” and hence them “having to reduce capacity”.
I believe we should be entitled to claim given that it was not our choice or wish to be bumped regardless of BA’s reasoning, but having seen some seemingly rather knowledgable and definietely very helpful individuals on this forum, I thought I’d check what you think.
Here are the details:
Flight: BA459 on 11 Aug (MAD-LHR)
Scheduled: 12:10 (CEST) – 13:35 (BST)
Class: X
Passengers in booking: 2There was NO announcement made to call for volunteers to be bumped. (If I understand correctly BA should have done this regardless of any other circumstances?)
Approx. 25 passengers were denied boarding from groups 4+ upon scanning of our boarding passes.
The claimed reason was a “crew member being sick” and therefore them “having to reduce capacity”. I asked the rep if they overbooked, he ignored the question and pointed in the direction of the Iberia ticket desk.At the Iberia ticket desk we got rebooked to the A350 (how nice) scheduled at 15:45 (CEST).
Having asked the rep about the reason BA gave and potential compensation, they laughed and said “they overbook like this all the time”.During our wait we were cared for via a wonderful meal voucher that could be used for 1 of two choices at a restaurant – thankfully the lounge we re-visited had nice lunch.
Eventually we arrived at LHR around 16:50 (BST) so slightly more than 3 hours late.
So, ultimately the questions I’d have are:
1) are we still allowed the claim even if the airline claims the bumping is due to a “crew member being sick”?
2) if yes, how much are we entitled to claim? (I thought we should get 2x £220 from BA as per CAA UK regulation)
3) should I mention in my claim the lack of call for volunteers or is that irrelevant?
4) is there anything specific I should mention/reference in my claim to maximise a successful resolution?Thanks a lot in advance!
Article 4 Denied Boarding is the simplest of them all. There is no ‘extraordinary circumstances’ get out and even if BA were to argue that Article 3 leads to Article 8 rerouting (which does have an ‘extraordinary circumstances’ get out) crew sickness does not constitute ‘extraordinary circumstances’ per the Court of Appeal and CJEU.
It’s highly unlikely this was overbooking, despite what Iberia said, as to overbook by 25 seats on a small aircraft would be fairly incredible. It also explains why BA didn’t ask for volunteers and as there’s no sanction if they don’t, so it’s not worth mentioning. You are entitled to £220 each.
I wouldn’t elaborate your claim. Just say you were booked on that flight, had boarding cards but upon timely arrival at the gate were denied boarding along with c. 25 other passengers so that you had to travel on a flight scheduled to depart 3h35 later. I don’t know if they provided you with any Notice to advise you of the denied boarding, or any other evidence but if you do append that to the claim but the facts shouldn’t be disputed.
Thanks for the prompt response and tagging JDB 🙂
Article 4 Denied Boarding is the simplest of them all. There is no ‘extraordinary circumstances’ get out and even if BA were to argue that Article 3 leads to Article 8 rerouting (which does have an ‘extraordinary circumstances’ get out) crew sickness does not constitute ‘extraordinary circumstances’ per the Court of Appeal and CJEU.
It’s highly unlikely this was overbooking, despite what Iberia said, as to overbook by 25 seats on a small aircraft would be fairly incredible. It also explains why BA didn’t ask for volunteers and as there’s no sanction if they don’t, so it’s not worth mentioning. You are entitled to £220 each.
I wouldn’t elaborate your claim. Just say you were booked on that flight, had boarding cards but upon timely arrival at the gate were denied boarding along with c. 25 other passengers so that you had to travel on a flight scheduled to depart 3h35 later. I don’t know if they provided you with any Notice to advise you of the denied boarding, or any other evidence but if you do append that to the claim but the facts shouldn’t be disputed.
Oh wow, by the time I wrote the above message you already responded. Thanks so much, that’s incredibly helpful!
To be honest, I did find it hard to believe they’d overbook by 25+ but asked just in case (and group of angry bumped passengers were of course chanting overbooking). They also fiddled on the BA aircraft after boarding for about half an hour before departing (which could be for other reasons, but thought it might be related if it’s actually a reduced crew situation).
No, we were not provided with a notice and also weren’t explained our rights – which I forgot to mention that I think should have happened – but again, makes more sense if this wasn’t an overbooking scenario.
I specifically asked the Iberia customer support person and they noted that they can’t provide any additonal proof of denied boarding and that I should use the original and new boarding passes – which I have scanned all of course, including the meal voucher haha.Thanks again, will submit as per your suggestion and hope for the best.
That’s a clear case for involuntary denied boarding compensation I don’t think BA will try to wriggle out of it. Nice that you got tge iberia A350 to LHR instead although it sounds like you were at the back of the plane so that was an upgrade in itself.
Did you get TP and Avios for the reroute too?
Just to clear up what possibly happened with a little conjecture. Assuming this was an A321 (other aircraft will work in a similar way), there are 177 seats onboard. Aviation regulations require one fit cabin crew member per 50 seats, 0-49 would be one, 50-99 would be two and so on; the A321 would need four. The regulations also allow an aircraft to be recovered to base with less than this providing passenger numbers are reduced according, assuming this aircraft had 174 passengers an offload of 25 would bring the number down to 149 and allow the flight to go ahead.
And don’t forget to add absolutely any meal or refreshments receipts to your claim. You are not obliged to use vouchers handed out. Just has to be reasonable as per local costs prevailing where you’re stuck
Has anything happened regarding the Supreme Court appeal re Lipton v BACF?
That’s a clear case for involuntary denied boarding compensation I don’t think BA will try to wriggle out of it. Nice that you got tge iberia A350 to LHR instead although it sounds like you were at the back of the plane so that was an upgrade in itself.
Did you get TP and Avios for the reroute too?
Actually, I asked if we could get the exit row again – reason for going home early was actually my friend having had injured their leg – and Iberia rep got it for us so legroom was nice and no neighbours. That being said, it was a bit of a pain to have to wait another 3 hours to get home and her leg rested, hence my frustration and really wanting to claim.
Great question! Original booking was a reward flight so didn’t think about this, but according to the FAQ
> If you were transferred to a flight with British Airways or a partner airline, you can claim Avios and Tier Points for the flight you flew instead.so maybe? Will try our luck with the Claim missing avios feature and the new ticket number. Rebooking was in to Y too, so maybe we get 20 TP? That would be a nice consolation prize. Thanks!
Just to clear up what possibly happened with a little conjecture. Assuming this was an A321 (other aircraft will work in a similar way), there are 177 seats onboard. Aviation regulations require one fit cabin crew member per 50 seats, 0-49 would be one, 50-99 would be two and so on; the A321 would need four. The regulations also allow an aircraft to be recovered to base with less than this providing passenger numbers are reduced according, assuming this aircraft had 174 passengers an offload of 25 would bring the number down to 149 and allow the flight to go ahead.
That makes perfect sense. Actually did the same maths since my post yesterday and it seems to add up 🙂
And don’t forget to add absolutely any meal or refreshments receipts to your claim. You are not obliged to use vouchers handed out. Just has to be reasonable as per local costs prevailing where you’re stuck
Ohh. That’s great to know! This time we were very happy with the MAD lounge offering so didn’t have to buy anything, but didn’t know we could still exercise our right to be cared for once given a voucher. Will remember that.
Has anything happened regarding the Supreme Court appeal re Lipton v BACF?
No, I think the appeal must have been dropped. I think the subject of the appeal may have been the obiter judgment of Green LJ so was an academic point rather than one relating to the underlying judgment. Why he gave that very lengthy obiter judgment is a mystery.
So they finally got back to me after 4+ months offernig a £300 voucher with a generic sorry about overbooking message clearly not having read my claim. I enquired further, and they just noted being “unable to offer further any compensation in this situation”.
Is there anything I can do at this stage with BA? Or would I need to take this further somehow? (as a reminder we are due 2 x £220)
Has anything happened regarding the Supreme Court appeal re Lipton v BACF?
No, I think the appeal must have been dropped. I think the subject of the appeal may have been the obiter judgment of Green LJ so was an academic point rather than one relating to the underlying judgment. Why he gave that very lengthy obiter judgment is a mystery.
Just putting this here https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2021-0098.html
@Richie – yes this was posted on the chat a few weeks ago with a number of contributions.
In light of the CJEU decision since the Court of Appeal case in this matter it would be a big moment for post Brexit EC261 if the Supreme Court comes to a different decision.
So they finally got back to me after 4+ months offernig a £300 voucher with a generic sorry about overbooking message clearly not having read my claim. I enquired further, and they just noted being “unable to offer further any compensation in this situation”.
Is there anything I can do at this stage with BA? Or would I need to take this further somehow? (as a reminder we are due 2 x £220)
It’s up to you. You can either accept £300 in funny money or hold out for £440 in real money which you will probably get, but it’s not sure. If you do wish to hold out, I would reply to BA’s offer saying that the sum offered appears incorrect as you are due £220 per person, so £440 in total pursuant to the compensation schedule at Article 7 of EC261 which applies to Article 4 involuntary denied boarding compensation when read in conjunction with the EC261 Interpretative Guidelines. Further, you are entitled to receive such sum by way of cash not vouchers without your express agreement which has not been given. Please therefore confirm payment of the total sum of £440 within the next 14 days, failing which you will take the matter to MCOL or CEDR.
Hopefully they will respond positively but if not make a claim to CEDR. The only issue is that your claim falls outside the classic ones and isn’t very clearly provided for in the legislation or cases. Any reasonable adjudicator ought to find in your favour, but there is a risk of BA bamboozling them. The issue of staff illness is entirely irrelevant to this case; it only matters for delays and cancellations.
So they finally got back to me after 4+ months offernig a £300 voucher with a generic sorry about overbooking message clearly not having read my claim. I enquired further, and they just noted being “unable to offer further any compensation in this situation”.
Is there anything I can do at this stage with BA? Or would I need to take this further somehow? (as a reminder we are due 2 x £220)
It’s up to you. You can either accept £300 in funny money or hold out for £440 in real money which you will probably get, but it’s not sure. If you do wish to hold out, I would reply to BA’s offer saying that the sum offered appears incorrect as you are due £220 per person, so £440 in total pursuant to the compensation schedule at Article 7 of EC261 which applies to Article 4 involuntary denied boarding compensation when read in conjunction with the EC261 Interpretative Guidelines. Further, you are entitled to receive such sum by way of cash not vouchers without your express agreement which has not been given. Please therefore confirm payment of the total sum of £440 within the next 14 days, failing which you will take the matter to MCOL or CEDR.
Hopefully they will respond positively but if not make a claim to CEDR. The only issue is that your claim falls outside the classic ones and isn’t very clearly provided for in the legislation or cases. Any reasonable adjudicator ought to find in your favour, but there is a risk of BA bamboozling them. The issue of staff illness is entirely irrelevant to this case; it only matters for delays and cancellations.
Thank you very much, I really appreciate your promt and thorough help. Will give this a try then.
I would add: BA is obviously using AI to help process claims.
As the old advice here says: keep your claim very simple, and perhaps split any claims into two – one for food, hotels etc, the other for EU261/UK261 claims.
I did this for a flight EDI-LHR-JFK. There was some bad weather, the EDI-LHR flight was a little late inbound, chaos in boarding and then when we finally got going we then got stuck in the hold at LHR because the airport had gone into poor weather ops. So we missed the last flight to JFK.
Now, I thought we’d get nothing because of earlier delays, or because of ATC restrictions, or weather, but…
I just wrote: Delays meant we missed the last JFK flight, were rebooked on the 09:35 the next morning and arrived in JFK 13 hours late.
We both got our £520.
@Colin, is this where you had to apply separately?
@Northernlass Yes.Slthough as it happened, I had filed for the two of us for 261 – I recognised all the fields in the form as I filled in one for myself!
So Mrs Mack then replied using her reference number and quoted my new number:
“I was advised my partner had to make a separate claim for the UK 261 compensation you have awarded me under this reference. He has now done this and his reference number is 1234567.”@Colin MacKinnon – the OP made her claim some time ago and has already received a slightly odd response which isn’t an AI one and nor will the next missive be dealt with by AI. Her claim is very non-standard, so needs to be addressed accordingly. Keeping it simple and factual is important, but so is dealing with each case on its specific facts.
In future, since we have different surnames, I would make one individual claim for one of us. I would then await the outcome.
If favourable, I would then open a claim for the second person with reference to the first claim. They share the same pnr after all.
If first claim rejected, I would try again with passenger 2 – and if they givethe cash I would go back to claim one!
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